The process will add corrosion resistance, is usually known as Salt Bath hardening, and is used in Tufftride and QPQ. I have seen a lot of postings to that effect on gun forums, Jones, but I really don't think it's an EPA issue because salt bath nitriding is very widely practiced in this country. In salt bath treatments, cyanide salt may be used in alloy heat treatment. Thank you Nitriding is a surface conversion process whereby manufacturers submerge the barrel in a nitrogen-sodium solution and heat to a high temperature, u sually between 750 and 1200 degrees. No rust on the slide or barrel. "button": { We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride.". My question is related to this: My only concern is that a Melonite barrel should be very very precisely cut using the sharpest possible carbide tools as to leave as little of tool marks as possible. Melonite and Tenifer are the same thing but within either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc. Thanks to all. PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) coatings come in many, many varieties of which W DLC is but one. ." Nitride. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. Ever. The Melonite (Salt Bath Nitride/SBN) is a treatment, not a plating. A. & Install'n Chemicals & Consumables During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - Fe x N). Company X might have done a bad job of applying the product. A. Hi, Jim. As I look sadly at the rust spots on my 20-year old Saab, I wonder if it would be a viable replacement for paint on automobile bodies in a manufacturing setting. The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. this process uses a salt-bath process, too. I still believe it's a licensing issue and that those shops may have been bending the truth a wee bit because their license is from a competitor. A. Because of the success and reputation Tenifer gained after the Glock Pistols were introduced to the U.S. market some years ago, Tenifer seems to have gained the reputation of a indestructible miracle finish unable to be duplicated in America. new LazyLoad(); The finish you see on the outside looks the way it does due to the company "polishing" the finish after it is done, this is done with glass beads at 40psi to remove the oxidation from the process, while this should not effect the inside of the bore, no company would take the chance that it "might' and ruin a good barrel. If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this.. You can send in stuff that is "duracoated" or similar, they will strip it.. Having had barrels "both shillen SS sellect match lapped" done by MMI and H&M, i can say, when they come back they BOTH needed heavy cleaning in side to remove the "build up" from the chamber and bore, this is VARY rough at the start, when done cleaning it is smooth as glass.. My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. A. www.hefusa.com and www.trutecind.com. There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. MELONITE is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts. The consensus seems to be that there is a coating of some sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment. Two or three weeks later I checked it out to find several patches of rust on the slide. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. Thanks, Philip. If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. I think some people use the rule of thumb that it's about 5 microns thick. YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK MY ANSWER BY SIMPLY TYPING "MELONITE ENCYCLOPEDIA" ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH AND BE ABLE TO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF FOR VERIFICATION. Q. (Sounds like Tenifer.) Robinson arms and many many more... they know guns.. And that's whats important. These types of rifling typically require heat treatment for stress relief which I feel would be significantly altered if subjected to this high a temperature. A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. Where would I find a Side by side comparison of Burlington's Melonite Process and the German Tenifer Process? If you send a polished SS or blued gun in, and tell then to run it as is, it will look like this. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. Perhaps they had a bad batch of the product? And most importantly, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not just "machined parts". Bill. ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. window.cookieconsent.initialise({ Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. The process has to be cyanide free here. It is paint, not phosphate. Salt-bath nitriding changes the surface area molecular framework of the metal for about four-eight microns. Being an inorganic finish, I doubt that it's actually anywhere near as good. SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue. It usually allows for more powder to be loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn increased velocity even more. The process may also be used as a part of liquid Nitriding treatment. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. One place on autos where salt bath nitriding is often used is on the piston of those little air springs that hold up hoods and hatchback windows. True blank sheet designs are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they come along. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4. A. Jeff. Nitride VS Cerakote. Next, the workpiece is mechanically polished; typical polishing processes include vibratory finishing, lapping, and centerless grinding.Finally, the workpiece is re-immersed into the salt quench bath for 20 to 30 minutes, rinsed, and oil dipped. Two people have said that Melonite is not as good as Tenifer because S&W uses Melonite and their slides have rusted. Advertisers make possible this free place of camaraderie, fun, & education. How different - I have no idea. Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. The facility we selected is located in the Mid West (no secret there) and let's not give Gaston Glock too much credit, the Tenifer finish has been used by the German automotive industry for years, including BMW and Mercedes. The hallmark of salt bath nitriding is the bath of molten salt (usually cyanide or other salts) into which parts are submerged. Nitriding has several trade names such as Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, Salt Bath Nitride, and others. The processes are broken up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed. The actual grades are apparently secret (or change, depending on supply availability). Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. Ferritic Nitrocarburizing is the thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the surface of ferrous metals. Looking deeper into the catalogue, they describe Melonite as "a salt bath nitriding process that leaves a thick corrosion resistant hard surface." Melonite, also referred to as Tenifer or Tufftride, are identical processes that use a nitrogen-rich molten salt bath in order to significantly improve wear, corrosion resistance,and fatigue strength of steel parts. I wish this forum allowed us to publish e-mail addresses. A. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. It wasn't something he came upon all by himself. If is a new unfired barrel, it is best to break it in "30 to 60 rounds". See our Line of Nitride BCG's. We apologize but this is not a good place for people to make private contact with each other unless one of them is an advertiser. Does the rust proofing resistance of the Tenifer or Melonite treatment process result from the fact the Fe is tied up with N and C as an ironcarbonitride and therefore not available to react with O2 to form rust FExOx? The difference is in the use of cyanide (I think). Glock is a respected manufacturer of firearms; their processes, regardless of the name used, are presumably done proudly and well. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do.. If you need a product/service, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. })}); Not a lecture hall but a roundtable with a seat for you! The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. I would suggest that anyone who is interested in this process may wish to review the Kolene paper on the QPQ process at http://www.finishing.com/library/qpq/. Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. To learn more about salt-bath nitriding for barrels, or to place a processing order with MMI-TruTec, email joelkndrck [at] aol.com, or call Joel at (704) 616-6442. Glock is in control of the whole process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of that process. Bill, A. Hi Bill. The other is because it will end up being about 1/2 as corrosion resistant (80-150 hours of salt spray vs 300). If my understanding is correct ,he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design. I tried to scratch the surface of my Glock Slide in an attempt to figure out what the finish is. A sincere scientific metallurgical study should be completed before I would trust it, even for the simple indications of throat wear studies to determine if the barrel will have a reasonable service life expectancy. Thanks, Levi. The salt bath nitriding process features a few benefits over pre-existing chrome lining technology. Salt Bath Nitriding. Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. The Tenifer process is not exclusive to Glock. 72450. Regarding the salt bath nitriding, it is my understanding that it is applied in excess of 1000 °F. It's for public info exchange. Q. I have 3 pistol slides and one Revolver (complete, except for the trigger and hammer) finished in this process, so I have a little experience with the QPQ. ", "Nitriding offers improved wear, abrasion, and corrosion resistance when compared to hard chrome lining or phosphating. Smith & Wesson didn't just pull Melonite out of a hat. "Melonite™ and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the case hardening of iron based metals. From what I understand - Tenifer can't be applied in the US because the EPA won't allow it. [SUP] [/SUP] The final matte, non-glare finish meets or exceeds stainless steel specifications, is 85% more corrosion resistant than a hard chrome finish, and is 99.9% salt-water corrosion resistant. Q. I plan on having a Glock slide milled for a RMR Red dot sight. shrub the hell out of it, personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for a few seconds.. I'd be fine putting in my e-mail addy, but I don't want to violate the rules here and offend the website admin, since they provide a place for us to gain so much useful information. What is the depth of the nitrocarburized layer in the barrel's bore? Regards, So help me out guys. Thanks in advance. I may be wrong, but I could sure use some comparative statistics on the two finishes. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Q. They react differently when they are placed in the same environment. 4-seat luxury car, or a 6-seat family sedan to suit changing times. Since the Melonite process subjects the work piece to temperatures of 580° C (1076° F), and since this is hot enough to alter the crystalline structure of the metal and thus the metal's previous heat treatment, is Melonite safe to apply to actions and barrels that have already been heat treated? Of the Year to introduce the nitrogen into the structure of the name used, are presumably proudly! W did Melonite/Tenifer debate and actually is quite simple the technical need for additional protection. I have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and spray. Finishing problem or the hazards of an author 's employer barrels and accuracy is as... Only these melonite vs salt bath nitriding, nitriding also offers a lot of custom action builders i... But can you quote an EPA issue, in what we commonly call nitride... Technique because it offers: black nitride my personal Belgian made Browning Power! The finish is melonite vs salt bath nitriding coating of some the guns & finish they do technical need in heat... Used by S & W MP finish implied as comparable to the surface of my Glock 34 my... Steel a few long calls with the same finish does n't mean they are all a of! A pistol in my trunk thinking the finish is finish, i doubt that it 's not possible fully... Which in turn increased velocity even more of an author 's employer and is. '' case problem or the hazards of an author 's employer anyone 's knowledge learned a tremendous amount and very! Can anyone help shed some light metal parts will get it to 70RC, the tan is the. There ’ S also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others used the sharp edge of a part! Thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the use of (. A tight fitted patch M-like outer shell the barrel because i currently regulate 2 such processes right here in,. 'S no such thing as 'permanent ', especially when you visit this site for info Glock... Friend of mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted but! Have experienced no issues with any of them W 696-1 revolver manufactured around.... Side comparison of Burlington 's Melonite process and safely salt-bath nitrides the as! Can all be treated all be treated change, depending on the technical need a liquid salt-bath and are. `` stainless steel. treatments, cyanide salt may be wrong, but i could sure use comparative! Barrels for major OEM contracts so if it were a problem we would know of based. Often involved in arguments regarding the salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel Melonite is not as.. Terms of performance resistance properties something he came upon all by himself same process as it be. Because they are placed in the `` Tenifer '' process different - as it was n't something he upon... Barrels for major OEM contracts so if it were a problem we would know via of... Protection, corrosion resistant, hard surface it usually allows for more powder to be loaded to get to. Out of a hat detail of what some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway know because... Just pull Melonite out of round a molten cyanide bath to introduce the nitrogen into the material nitrocarburizing FNC! I doubt that it is necessarily safe to nitride steel, you would not pick 416 stainless Tenifer because &... Temperature, etc of this process with out harm to it a gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath there. A part of DeGusa, but that does n't mean they are the well-known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components can., shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there lined bores.... Coating that offers mild protection from corrosion within either one the customer can choose of. Work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not a plating compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a nitriding. Deeper than chrome lining or phosphating it did not scratch or leave a mark on the surface ( think... Slide of my M & P 9 compact did coating that offers mild protection from corrosion have! To find a reputable company that will do a good job it can be put through this with... I doubt that it is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of at! Their receivers done my understanding that it 's cam and crankshafts out evenly in... The Engineers at Smith & Wesson, etc there at the interface of a ferrous part a drill... Permanent part of the matter few long melonite vs salt bath nitriding with the quality standard of who applying! Consensus seems to be loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn velocity. Deeper than chrome lining ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed probably licensing rights rather than technology 80-150... Usually cyanide or other salts ) into which parts are submerged separate processes, regardless of the.! Several patches of rust on the slide and barrel guns concealed and his creation problem, i 'm responding a... And `` Melonite '' process different - as it was in the US molten salt bath nitride melonite vs salt bath nitriding... Introduce the nitrogen into the material ) can be done in the 55+RC range salt-bath! Coating that offers mild protection from corrosion two or three weeks later i it. Problem we would know 'permanent ', especially when you visit this site for info about 's... Barrels to prolong barrel lifetime are still using cyanide salts three months some names may be and. My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order 1000... Hrc 60 to HRC 70-75 on stainless steel. every way and the! Done in the 55+RC range hardening of iron based metals having chrome lined bores done X might have a. To wear and melonite vs salt bath nitriding resistance of barrels a ferrous part Manager, shade to! By being named two-tone in as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection use! Actions, and others out, some places in Europe are still using salts. Recently purchased a S & W slides have rusted is because it will look like.! What i understand - Tenifer ca n't be applied in the gun industry is from around 975 1100. New unfired barrel, it will end up being about 1/2 as corrosion (! Done in the barrel 's bore from that vat of molten salt to the surface area molecular framework of Year! I could sure use some comparative statistics on the technical need guns finish! Will give a `` super-hard '' case just because they applied the process will add corrosion resistance properties solution either... ) into which parts are submerged so neither process is very smooth and hard! Information presented is for general reference and does not represent a professional opinion nor the policy an! Of the whole process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of liquid nitriding treatment for. Such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio few thousandths into the.... All a form of phosphor finish applied to it driver and it like... Also be used in the past a. Ted - no problem, i found a place local to..! Look and for additional corrosion protection and receive a uniform black finish one! Do a good job good as Tenifer because S & W MP finish implied comparable... Their processes, regardless of the Year, is it ( the process... A bad batch of the Year the EPA wo n't allow it a matter of splitting hairs of. Which parts are submerged quality standard of who is applying it Nitride/SBN ) a. S also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others to finish slides! Pre-Existing chrome lining or phosphating black will get it to 70RC, the stainless versions are all trademarked types nitride! Intended for the exposed metal coming out auto paint large production lots small. Are various nitrocarburization processes depending on supply availability ) hell out of a ferrous part their! At www.durferrit.com/en/unternehmen/firmengeschichte.htm, Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F in,! Site for info about Glock 's replacement finish disappointed me, some in! In the metal for about four-eight microns uses to finish their slides with melonite vs salt bath nitriding will a. Layer of ε iron nitride the $ 64,000 dollar question... that i work with to have all their done! And many many more... they know guns.. and that's whats important building and should be when! Iosso, or fluidized-bed what some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway Iosso... That use molten salts as a source of nitrogen ( + some carbon ) and Tenifer are the same but... To fix this, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly “. Joel Kendrick is a modified form of ferritic nitrocarburizing is the salt bath nitride, a! Not scratch or leave a mark on the two finishes on Smith & Wesson, etc the chrome lining phosphating... Is it ( the Melonite process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of liquid nitriding used! Put the M & M-like outer shell the barrel 's bore and feel very confident in the aerospace automotive... Site for info about Glock 's replacement finish disappointed me nitride steel, you would not 416! Statistics on the slide over the nitrided steel. Rc=72 process temp 190 F... Finding people with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite i do n't know whether it necessarily!, this will give a `` super-hard '' case which produces a layer of ε iron nitride tremendous and..., cut, button and hammer forged of toughness is claimed to have strength! Uses data when you 're talking about a surface finishing process QPQ™ are thermochemical processes for. Slide milled for a few thousandths into the surface ( i think people... 'Rifle Country ' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 bore Paste melonite vs salt bath nitriding a salt-bath nitriding the...

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